How to become a better business leader

14 Nov 2024

Conducting ‘business as usual’ is no longer enough. The UBC Sauder School of Business recognizes how quickly the world is changing and encourages students to think beyond conventional practices and create innovative solutions to the grand challenges of our time—from climate change and consumption to inequality and the changing economy. Darren Dahl, Dean of UBC Sauder, joins us to share how UBC Sauder’s unique programmes and initiatives are empowering students to become a different kind of business leader – innovative, responsible and ready to make a positive impact in the world.

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</iframThe transcript below has been lightly edited for grammar, spelling, and clarity.Shekinah Kannan: Hi listeners, and welcome back to the Extra Credit podcast. If you’re tuning in for the first time, get ready to uncover everything there is to know about studying abroad through the eyes of students, educators and global thought leaders.I’m your host, Shekinah, and today we’ll be venturing into the world of business education. I’m really excited about this conversation that we’re about to have, because it’s not something we’ve covered just yet on the podcast, at least I haven’t, and the fact that we’ll be focusing on UBC Sauder School of Business makes it even better, because from what I’ve heard, its students aren’t just learning the traditional ropes of business. Of course, they’re gaining a solid foundation, but there’s also a lot of emphasis on thinking outside the box to solve the world’s biggest problems in innovative ways. It’s essentially redefining what it means to be a business student and walking us through the many ways they’re doing this, is Darren Dahl, the Dean of UBC Sauder. He has a lot of great insights to share, so without wasting any time, let’s welcome him to the conversation. Hi, Darren. How are you?Darren Dahl: Great, thanks for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to be here. Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, we’re so excited to have you. I was doing a bit of research, and I saw that you’ve actually worked at the school for over 22 years.Darren Dahl: Yeah, it’s been a fair amount of time to be in the business of business education, but I’ve learned a lot, I’ve seen a lot, and it’s enabled me to hopefully help students and create great experiences. Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, and you’re a proud graduate of UBC as well. Darren Dahl: Yeah, I did my graduate work at UBC and had the opportunity to work around the world. I’ve worked at universities in Hong Kong, in the United States, in Europe, and of course, back here in Canada.Shekinah Kannan: That’s great. This only proves that there really is no one better to break down just how students here are preparing to think differently and act responsibly. There’s a lot of emphasis placed on that when I was doing my research and going through UBC Sauder’s page, and the first thing I saw was this line “inspiring and educating responsible leaders.” By this, we can see the school is definitely not just focused on business as usual. It’s not concerned solely with teaching students to become graduates. It’s about inspiring them to be leaders who set the highest standards for ethical and effective business practices, and before we get into how this approach is carried out, it’ll be great if we can talk about the why and the history behind why UBC Sauder chose to highlight business for good. Darren Dahl: Sure. I think it’s a great question. It’s a great place to start. I think a lot of people think that business is very static. What I mean by static is they think, “Oh, I’m gonna go to school, and I’ll learn accounting, debits and credits, and I’ll learn finance, net present value, and I’ll learn marketing, four P’s, and then I’m done and that it never changes.” But what we know more than anything is the world is constantly changing, and business, in some ways, is keeping up, and in some ways is leading change around the world. So if business is changing, it’s important that, you know, we help manage that change. In a business school, a good business school, I would argue, you know, you’re managing that change in a positive way. That business can find opportunity in solving the problems that we find in countries around the world. And so that’s what we’re working on here at our school, is to say, “Okay, it’s not just business as usual. You got to think outside, right? And try to figure out, well, how can we actually create great business opportunities by solving the problems that the world might face today.” Whether that’s climate, whether that’s geopolitical issues, whether that’s human rights, there’s all kinds of things that you know business can help on, and that’s where opportunity can be found.Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, that’s great. I think when you look at other business school websites, and you’re constantly seeing numbers and ROI and lots of salaries being displayed and stuff, I guess what you’re saying can sometimes get lost in translation, the real importance of doing good business. Yeah, so UBC Sauder’s page and its value proposition, “Think Outside,” it definitely goes against the stereotype of producing graduates merely intent on making money and just, I guess, being really super successful. Could you walk us through three ways that UBC Sauder does things differently?Darren Dahl: Sure, absolutely. First off, I think the first thing goes back to what you’ve just mentioned, that a lot of business schools will say, “Oh, just make lots of money and do it however you have to do it.” And the first thing I’d say is it doesn’t have to be an either-or in terms of business for good and making money. The way that I would say that we try to approach it in a different way, is you can make money. It’s okay to make money. Like I think everyone wants to make some money to buy a house or a car, some yummy food, whatever, right? Some fancy clothes, a nice handbag, whatever. You want to make some money, but you also want to do good things, and it’s not mutually exclusive. In other words, you don’t have to pick one or the other. It can be both. And so what I would say we work on first in the business school, that maybe sets us apart from some schools, is that you can build businesses that do very well, but also solve a big problem, like the things I was mentioning. So that’s a dual focus that I think is going to be important as we move forward. If you’re just focusing on one or the other, your business isn’t going to last long, right? So that’s the first thing. The second thing is, when students come, you know, the traditional model of business education is there’s someone up at the front of the room, standing there and just talking a lot. So, you know, we’re trying to move away from that and look at involving students in more real-world experiences as they go through their degree. So what does that mean? That means working on real problems, case studies, working with businesses or nonprofits, giving people in the classroom the opportunity to work together more, and not just sit there as a passive listener, but rather be directly involved in their education. People enjoy that more and frankly, they learn more. They can point to things and aspects of the education that have really changed them. Then the last one there that I think makes us a bit unique is our approach to our community. Whether it’s an East Coast, or West Coast thing in North America, I don’t know, but people that come to Sauder tend to be more of a family. I once asked one of the classes, “How would you describe your class?” And they said, “To be honest, Darren, kind.” And I’m like, “What? We don’t talk about kindness in the business school, it’s competitive. We have to win, right?” What was cool was a student said, “Yeah, everyone can win.” You know, when you go to Sauder, we want to think about community. We want to think about family and helping everyone get better, because when everybody’s in the pool, it’s way more fun. So the notion of community and kind of ramping down, there’s always going to be competition, but ramping down, maybe cutthroat competition is what I would say we work on. Where everybody is friendly, everybody knows everybody, everyone’s accepted for whoever you are, wherever you come from. You know, that’s the notion of community. So those are the three things I would say you can have win, win, make money and solve world problems. Two, student experience is about getting involved, getting in the sandbox and having fun. And three, community, and value of community. Phew, that was a long answer.Shekinah Kannan: But I love that mention on community. I would assume because Sauder School does offer undergraduate and postgraduate degree programmes, so I would imagine maybe an undergraduate student who’s entering university for the first time, or a postgraduate student who specialised in something other than business previously, before now seeking a business education, I would assume that sense of community would be really important for them, knowing that they’re coming to a place where their background is appreciated and their insights are appreciated as well. So thank you so much for mentioning that. I think it’s something super important, especially for that personal growth element. Definitely, a sense of community is super important as well as, of course, experiential learning and everything you were talking about on that level. So yeah, the curriculum, it’s super ambitious in getting students to care about the outcome of their business degree on a personal, professional and global scale. It would be great if we could talk about how students are given a strong foundation to achieve personal growth while tackling global problems.Darren Dahl: So I think this happens in a few different ways. So first off, you got to know the basics. I kind of teased at the beginning, right, accounting, finance and marketing. You have to understand the language of business. So that’s part of the education process, is getting your basics very well centred. Then once you have that as a base, right, then you have kind of the permission, the ability to chase down whatever might be your passion. So maybe you want to be an entrepreneur in clean tech, or maybe you’re excited about healthcare, or maybe, you know, you’ve just always wanted to start your own bubble tea shop, who knows, right? Once you’ve got that base right, then, boom, you are empowered, I would argue, to really kind of chase down whatever that dream that you might have in terms of pursuing some aspect of business. Now, in Harrington, that is kind of understanding, “Well, what’s your dream?” Because a lot of people that come to the school may not know, and that’s okay. Some people, when they’re born, right, they know right away. They’re like, one years old, and they’re like, “I want to be in finance,” and they get a tattoo, and that’s all they do, right? Finance. But what’s interesting is that some people aren’t so sure, right? They kind of know, maybe I want to do this, maybe I want to do that. So, you know, what we try to do is try to give permission to people that aren’t sure, to try lots of different things, and try to try to figure out, “Well, what is my identity when it comes to business, right?” Giving people the confidence – that’s the other big part of this – to take a shot to try different things and try to figure out “Where am I going to be the happiest? Where am I going to be able to contribute? Where am I going to be able to, you know, make a difference the way I want to make a difference, right?” So that’s a big goal, getting the basics right, understanding the direction you want, and then ensuring that what does fit for who you are. I was actually having a conversation just yesterday with a first-year student who thought they wanted to go into business and computer science, to be, you know, into programming in Python. And they said to me, on a walk we went on, they said, “After one month, I realised I don’t really like computer science.” And I said, “That’s okay, right? You can finish that part of the coursework, and then pivot and choose something else, something different, because that’s what we’re doing.” You know, when we come to university, we’re on a road of discovery to really figure out what is the right path, and it’s okay if you don’t know right at the beginning, it tends to be a journey.Shekinah Kannan: Yeah. I mean, I’ve hardly ever come across anyone who’s like, “I’m just so passionate about computer science. It’s my calling in life.” But it’s really nice to know – Darren Dahl: There’s a few of them, come on. Shekinah Kannan: I mean, it’s definitely interesting stuff, and it can lead to incredible outcomes, that’s for sure. But, yeah, it’s great that you’ve had a student, you know, really take into account what makes them happy and whether or not they are on a career path that’s gonna make them feel really fulfilled. So that’s definitely important as well, and it’s important for students to know that that is a possibility you can be happy on your career path. That’s great. Darren Dahl: Honestly, it’s okay to pivot. Sometimes there’s family pressure or peer pressure, and you just think, “Oh, I need to do this.” But sometimes it’s okay to say, “No, no, no, I need space to figure it out.” Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, I can definitely see, based on all my research and stuff, a lot of the ways that UBC Sauder inspires students to do something meaningful in their careers. There’s a lot of great work that’s being done in the ethics, leadership, climate and sustainability spaces to tackle problems like climate change, inequality, economic development and many other things. While I’m sure there are several projects and initiatives with these goals, it would be great if you could share with us, Darren, your favourite innovative research projects that UBC Sauder students have taken part in so far. Darren Dahl: Sure, so what I would say here is, you know, and this goes back to that experiential learning. For us, I think you want to give as many opportunities as we can to students, and some of them come from the students right bottom up, and some come top down, from the professors and the staff. One of the ones that I love, because I was directly involved in many years ago, and we still do it today, is a course called “New Venture Design.” In this course, three business students and three engineering students come together, and that’s always a bit awkward, like a weird high school dance, right? They are different, but they find each other, and then they decide what they want to produce, and what they want to create. So the goal of the whole class is to create a new product or service and patent it or prototype it, and then bring it to market and try to create a company. So it’s a purely experiential course, but what’s exciting about it is people come up with all kinds of ideas, and some of them actually go on and create a business out of what they did in the class. And that is fun because people get to be creative and innovative and just do whatever they want as long as they can find something that creates value. So that’s one example. A second example is, we have a programme called “Lift,” which sends our students to Kenya, to Nairobi in Africa, and they work there with people in Nairobi and help them in terms of, you know, education, in starting small, little businesses. You know, we have about 20 or so students that go every year, and it’s a real life-changing experience, because they’re exposed to a completely different culture, and they’re able to add value and to help people that perhaps may not have had the opportunity to go to university or to have this type of educational experience. So, you know, they come back from that experience and with a different view of the world. Their priorities perhaps have been shifted a bit because I’ve had a chance to work with a very different population than perhaps maybe where they grew up, or what they do on a day-to-day basis here in Canada. So two very different kinds of examples, both based on entrepreneurship, but one in terms of coming together with other students to create something really cool, and one really understanding and going deep into another culture where it can make a difference in people’s lives, Shekinah Kannan: Right and are these opportunities available to both undergrad and postgrad students? Darren Dahl: They are. So there’s a course in the undergrad called “New Venture Design”, and there’s a course in the MBA called “Tech Entrepreneurship,” and it’s the same model. And for “Sauder Lift,” it’s open to students in both programmes. So we try to create opportunity. Sometimes there are unique opportunities depending on the programme, and how long the programme is. But it’s a goal, certainly of mine, to make sure that no matter which degree you sign up for, you’re going to have experiential opportunities to really stretch yourself and learn in a different way. Shekinah Kannan: And while we’re on that note, it would be great if we could talk a little bit about the Creative Destruction Lab – Vancouver, which was launched in 2016 and has since accepted over 400 ventures and counting. Yeah, if you could walk us through a little bit about how international students have benefited from CDL, that would be great. Darren Dahl: Absolutely. So CDL is a pretty big programme, and you gave some highlights on the number of companies and billions of dollars of equity value has been created. The idea of CDL is to bring knowledge into the same space and what I mean by that is, often, you know, scientists at UBC or other universities come up with a really interesting technology or product or service or idea, and they want to bring it out of their lab, but they’re not really sure, right? They’re trained to be a scientist, right? So they’re working in nanotechnology, or they’re working in some type of biochemical context, right? So the CDL enables them, as a founder or as a scientist, to come into the room and get good advice, good knowledge, from other people that have done it before. Other people that have built a venture, as well as other scientists, as well as business support like lawyers and accountants and consultants. So it all comes together in sessions where, you know, people say, if you want to move this idea forward, Mr. Scientist, Mr. Founder, right, you have to tackle these goals. They get a goal set, and they work on that for three months, and then they come back, and then they get another goal set, and they come back, right? It helps move them forward, bringing their technology or their great idea to market. Now, why is this useful for students? Students, in many ways, get to ride along. We have a course, a CDL course, where they actually start at the beginning and help CDL pick which ventures are going to be part of the programme. So they do the due diligence. Hundreds of ventures apply, and so they help narrow it to a certain number of ventures. Then, as these sessions happen, they get to ride along right, sit watch with their big bowl of popcorn and see what happens in the room when more knowledge is applied to the venture. They get to see how it grows and they get to be, in some ways, a research assistant. Be a junior employee. Use that as a metaphor with these new ventures to help them get to the next stage. Sometimes what happens after going through the course and riding along with the ventures is sometimes they’re offered a job, or they’re given an opportunity to continue on and work with either this venture or perhaps start their own venture. So it does a couple of things as a course. One, it is very inspirational. It empowers students to see how they could perhaps do that. Second, is the deep knowledge on what it takes to be a successful venture in a tech or a biotech type space as example. And three, it can actually create employment opportunities directly for students that have an interest in working for a startup organisation that we see in these types of programmes. So that’s again, bit of a full-type answer, but it points again to the fact really cool education is letting you get your hands dirty and experience on the ground what companies you know new ventures are going through as they try to bring their products to market, right? Shekinah Kannan: I love that you mentioned previously that a lot of these opportunities are available to students of all ages and academic backgrounds, which is great, I think, for listeners to know. As we were talking just now about different people at different stages of life coming into the business school, I was just thinking about international students who might be new to Vancouver and maybe a bit nervous about innovating and sharing their ideas with people. You know, anyone might feel a bit scared to tell people what their great idea is, afraid of judgment or afraid of, you know, people thinking that it’s not that great. So I just wanted to know if there are any avenues or programmes for international students or students in general, to help them kind of come out of their shells, or be more confident in presenting their ideas or working with people Darren Dahl: Sure, there’s no question, and that’s quite an insightful question, that it can be hard and scary to come to a new place, right? For so many reasons, right? Just culturally, like maybe new food and a new way of, you know, banking or doing your laundry, like, who knows, right? Like so often for some people, it takes a few weeks to just get adjusted on the living and then you got to go to school, which is even more challenging for some people, because maybe you know where you went to school, it’s more of a strict type of schooling, and in our school, it’s a little more, you know, laid back, perhaps in your mind, or maybe the reverse, right? So there’s a lot of acculturation or a lot of getting over that initial anxiety and fear, and that’s pretty normal. So what I would tell you first off is to realise that, you know, you’re not alone as a student. It can be scary for everybody. So the first thing that we often do across programmes is try to create a nice on-ramp, right? So if you think about, you know, getting on a ferry or onto a highway system, there’s always an on-ramp to make it easier so you can speed up and you can merge into the traffic. There’s your metaphor. So in our undergrad programme, we have a programme called “Jumpstart,” which starts a bit before classes start, and it gives you a few days to kind of just understand what it’s going to be like to be in class, the requirements of university, what to expect in terms of grading. Maybe when you went to your school, you were always 95% and now at university, it changes a bit, right? So giving people again that confidence, reducing the anxiety you get to meet some professors that are very nice, right? Not scary, you know? It gets you in the zone so that you can actually be comfortable sharing your ideas. Now we do something parallel, of course, in our MBA and our other graduate programmes. We have a week of orientation where, again, you know, you get to meet people, good mixers, meet other students, and then you realise, “Whoa, I have a similar even though maybe we’re from a different country, I have a very similar outlook, very similar fears and anxieties as that person over there.” And you start to bond. I would tell you, one of the best ways to create bonding and community and reduce things that is food. So we’re always eating food in the first week, right? Because nothing brings people together more than food, good food, right? So that’s a big part of coming into university, it’s getting those interactions, meeting people, right? We do different activities in those weeks, whether it’s Jumpstart or orientations, to make sure that people you know are feeling like it’s their second home. Because once you feel and we all know what we’re like at home, right? We’re just who we are, and we don’t worry about impressing people. We’re always our worst selves and our best selves when we’re at home. At least that’s what my mom always said. So that level of comfort is what we hope you have, as a new student coming into the school that you can start to feel comfortable, to express your opinions, your ideas, your diversity, so that you know that you’ll be respected and people will see value in that, and that’s part of becoming a better person. The people that I admire the most are ones that are able to fit in in any context, any country, any culture, any part of a socioeconomic situation, right? These are cool people, and so that’s what we’re hoping our students will start to feel, is that you know, they can be comfortable in their own skin and then be confident to as you say, where you started, you know, express your ideas and be courageous enough to put your hand up. But it’s not easy at the beginning. I agree. Shekinah Kannan: Of course, yeah. I’d love to talk a bit more about the student experience in a little bit. Actually, before we get to the fun stuff, I just had a question about the academic side of things. Based on everything that you’ve spoken about so far, Darren, I can definitely understand why UBC is ranked number one for business programmes in Canada’s best business programmes in university rankings by McLean’s education. Beyond this achievement, it also, I think, stands out for its specialised career tracks. There are a lot of great options on the website, and there’s a new climate track as well, which I think sounds obviously very aligned to everything we were talking about previously, about responsible business and responsible leadership. What do students tend to gain from this track, and how can they pair this with what the Centre for Climate and Business Solutions currently offers? Darren Dahl: Great, that’s a good question. So why this track? Well, to be honest, this is driven by companies in the external community. So our Career Centre is always working with companies, big and small and trying to find opportunities for our graduates. So what we saw over the last two, three, four, five years is more companies, more organisations are saying, “Hey,” putting their hand up and saying, “Hey, we would love someone that can work in a climate capacity, maybe an ESG measurement, maybe in terms of, how do you scale a climate technology that reduces greenhouse gasses, we need a sustainability officer, right?” And so when the external community, companies, startups, nonprofits, start asking for this type of training, and this type of student graduate, you know, that means that we have to pivot and start to offer that type of programming. Then, on the flip side, it’s true that a lot of our students were saying, “Hey, I want to learn more about this. I want a class on this.” So, you know, when you’re feeling it from both sides like a sandwich, you want to make sure the stuff in the middle, that major, that option, is available to our students. So it’s really just being responsive to both the job market as well as student interest. That’s where there’s great opportunity. There’s a lot of business. The climate issue can’t be solved without business, right? It’s more than just making posters and going to marches that ain’t going to solve it. You have to solve the whole system, and that’s the job of business and government. But that’s an opportunity. So that’s the why. If that makes sense. Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, definitely makes sense. Thank you so much for sharing that, and now we can get into the more fun stuff about – Darren Dahl: I thought this was all fun stuff. Shekinah Kannan: It always starts, I think, with the surroundings, right? People know, you know, great business school, amazing offerings and a lot of incredible opportunities. But as you were mentioning just now, it’s also about their surroundings. And, you know, the life that they’re going to have in a new location. So a big part of it is, you know, the international student experience, the location is a very important part of that. So UBC Sauder has an edge in this aspect, with Vancouver being known for its West Coast spirit. As someone who has been with the school since, we said, just now, over 22 years, it’s a really, really long time. I would love to know your first impression of this West Coast spirit. Darren Dahl: I came from another part of Canada. I didn’t grow up in Vancouver, and I came here, and I was like, “Holy cow, this is amazing.” I did my degree, and then I had to go away, but I worked hard to come back as quick as I could. And so after four years away, I came back right. And so why? It’s a great question. The why is Vancouver itself. It’s, it’s a beautiful city, it’s a relatively safe city, it’s a clean city. It sits in the ocean with mountains behind it, and so it really is, you know, it’s a place to live where you can do all kinds of different things, whatever you’re passionate about. So many people that live here, they love the outdoors. They love to go hiking. They love to see, you know, animals, bears and hopefully not cougars, but they’re there, right? You can see all kinds of different wildlife, which is kind of cool, right? And if you love sports, there’s mountain biking and skiing and boating and kayaking, and who so much Lululemon, right? So many active people. So, you know, that’s there. And then it’s a multicultural city. There are so many different people from different walks of life. And so what does that mean? It means great food. You can find amazing food from Asia, from Europe, from Africa, from the US. There are burgers here. No, it’s, I’m just kidding, there’s just great food, and it’s fun. And then there’s an art scene. You know, whether you love live music, everything from orchestra to the speed mail, you name it, you can find it. So it’s a big enough city. It’s not as big as some of you know the other ones I mentioned, but it can cater to almost anything that you have an interest in, and that’s pretty cool. And so when you add it all up, Vancouver always does really well on the great cities to live in rankings. That’s why people like to live here and certainly that’s why I’ve stayed here. You add to that a university that’s just kind of fun and full of energy, and most people have an amazing time. So that’s an advantage. It’s just a great place to live. Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, Vancouver’s always been on my must-visit list, and it sounds like an amazing place to balance out the rigours of a, you know, quite a well-rounded business degree and an MBA has actually also been on my bucket list for a while, so might have to kill – Darren Dahl: We can send you an application right now. Shekinah Kannan: I might have to kill two birds with one stone pretty soon. Thank you so much for painting such a vivid picture for us of what the student experience is like at UBC Sauder School of Business. It’s definitely setting a new standard, I think, for business education, and it sounds like it’s definitely producing the kind of graduates that our world needs right now. So very inspiring stuff. Thank you so so much for dedicating all this time for us. Darren Dahl: Yeah, it’s my pleasure, and look forward to crossing paths again, hopefully in Vancouver or – Shekinah Kannan: As an MBA student Darren Dahl: Thank you. Shekinah Kannan: Yeah. So, to all our listeners considering a future in business, the UBC Sauder School of Business should definitely be on your radar. To learn more about their innovative programmes, visit Sauder. That’s S, A, U, D, E, R dot UBC dot CA. You can also connect with them on Facebook, Instagram, X, YouTube and LinkedIn. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the Extra Credit podcast. We’ve got more inspiring study-abroad stories and insights coming your way. In the meantime, feel free to share your thoughts or episode ideas with us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok under the username Study International. Thank you for tuning in everyone and until next time, take care and keep learning.

The transcript below has been lightly edited for grammar, spelling, and clarity.

Shekinah Kannan: Hi listeners, and welcome back to the Extra Credit podcast.

If you’re tuning in for the first time, get ready to uncover everything there is to know about studying abroad through the eyes of students, educators and global thought leaders.

I’m your host, Shekinah, and today we’ll be venturing into the world of business education. I’m really excited about this conversation that we’re about to have, because it’s not something we’ve covered just yet on the podcast, at least I haven’t, and the fact that we’ll be focusing on UBC Sauder School of Business makes it even better, because from what I’ve heard, its students aren’t just learning the traditional ropes of business. Of course, they’re gaining a solid foundation, but there’s also a lot of emphasis on thinking outside the box to solve the world’s biggest problems in innovative ways. It’s essentially redefining what it means to be a business student and walking us through the many ways they’re doing this, is Darren Dahl, the Dean of UBC Sauder. He has a lot of great insights to share, so without wasting any time, let’s welcome him to the conversation.

Hi, Darren. How are you?

Darren Dahl: Great, thanks for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, we’re so excited to have you. I was doing a bit of research, and I saw that you’ve actually worked at the school for over 22 years.

Darren Dahl: Yeah, it’s been a fair amount of time to be in the business of business education, but I’ve learned a lot, I’ve seen a lot, and it’s enabled me to hopefully help students and create great experiences.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, and you’re a proud graduate of UBC as well.

Darren Dahl: Yeah, I did my graduate work at UBC and had the opportunity to work around the world. I’ve worked at universities in Hong Kong, in the United States, in Europe, and of course, back here in Canada.

Shekinah Kannan: That’s great. This only proves that there really is no one better to break down just how students here are preparing to think differently and act responsibly. There’s a lot of emphasis placed on that when I was doing my research and going through UBC Sauder’s page, and the first thing I saw was this line “inspiring and educating responsible leaders.” By this, we can see the school is definitely not just focused on business as usual. It’s not concerned solely with teaching students to become graduates. It’s about inspiring them to be leaders who set the highest standards for ethical and effective business practices, and before we get into how this approach is carried out, it’ll be great if we can talk about the why and the history behind why UBC Sauder chose to highlight business for good.

Darren Dahl: Sure. I think it’s a great question. It’s a great place to start. I think a lot of people think that business is very static. What I mean by static is they think, “Oh, I’m gonna go to school, and I’ll learn accounting, debits and credits, and I’ll learn finance, net present value, and I’ll learn marketing, four P’s, and then I’m done and that it never changes.” But what we know more than anything is the world is constantly changing, and business, in some ways, is keeping up, and in some ways is leading change around the world. So if business is changing, it’s important that, you know, we help manage that change. In a business school, a good business school, I would argue, you know, you’re managing that change in a positive way. That business can find opportunity in solving the problems that we find in countries around the world. And so that’s what we’re working on here at our school, is to say, “Okay, it’s not just business as usual. You got to think outside, right? And try to figure out, well, how can we actually create great business opportunities by solving the problems that the world might face today.” Whether that’s climate, whether that’s geopolitical issues, whether that’s human rights, there’s all kinds of things that you know business can help on, and that’s where opportunity can be found.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, that’s great. I think when you look at other business school websites, and you’re constantly seeing numbers and ROI and lots of salaries being displayed and stuff, I guess what you’re saying can sometimes get lost in translation, the real importance of doing good business. Yeah, so UBC Sauder’s page and its value proposition, “Think Outside,” it definitely goes against the stereotype of producing graduates merely intent on making money and just, I guess, being really super successful. Could you walk us through three ways that UBC Sauder does things differently?

Darren Dahl: Sure, absolutely. First off, I think the first thing goes back to what you’ve just mentioned, that a lot of business schools will say, “Oh, just make lots of money and do it however you have to do it.” And the first thing I’d say is it doesn’t have to be an either-or in terms of business for good and making money. The way that I would say that we try to approach it in a different way, is you can make money. It’s okay to make money. Like I think everyone wants to make some money to buy a house or a car, some yummy food, whatever, right? Some fancy clothes, a nice handbag, whatever. You want to make some money, but you also want to do good things, and it’s not mutually exclusive. In other words, you don’t have to pick one or the other. It can be both. And so what I would say we work on first in the business school, that maybe sets us apart from some schools, is that you can build businesses that do very well, but also solve a big problem, like the things I was mentioning. So that’s a dual focus that I think is going to be important as we move forward. If you’re just focusing on one or the other, your business isn’t going to last long, right? So that’s the first thing. The second thing is, when students come, you know, the traditional model of business education is there’s someone up at the front of the room, standing there and just talking a lot. So, you know, we’re trying to move away from that and look at involving students in more real-world experiences as they go through their degree. So what does that mean? That means working on real problems, case studies, working with businesses or nonprofits, giving people in the classroom the opportunity to work together more, and not just sit there as a passive listener, but rather be directly involved in their education. People enjoy that more and frankly, they learn more. They can point to things and aspects of the education that have really changed them. Then the last one there that I think makes us a bit unique is our approach to our community. Whether it’s an East Coast, or West Coast thing in North America, I don’t know, but people that come to Sauder tend to be more of a family. I once asked one of the classes, “How would you describe your class?” And they said, “To be honest, Darren, kind.” And I’m like, “What? We don’t talk about kindness in the business school, it’s competitive. We have to win, right?” What was cool was a student said, “Yeah, everyone can win.” You know, when you go to Sauder, we want to think about community. We want to think about family and helping everyone get better, because when everybody’s in the pool, it’s way more fun. So the notion of community and kind of ramping down, there’s always going to be competition, but ramping down, maybe cutthroat competition is what I would say we work on. Where everybody is friendly, everybody knows everybody, everyone’s accepted for whoever you are, wherever you come from. You know, that’s the notion of community. So those are the three things I would say you can have win, win, make money and solve world problems. Two, student experience is about getting involved, getting in the sandbox and having fun. And three, community, and value of community. Phew, that was a long answer.

Shekinah Kannan: But I love that mention on community. I would assume because Sauder School does offer undergraduate and postgraduate degree programmes, so I would imagine maybe an undergraduate student who’s entering university for the first time, or a postgraduate student who specialised in something other than business previously, before now seeking a business education, I would assume that sense of community would be really important for them, knowing that they’re coming to a place where their background is appreciated and their insights are appreciated as well. So thank you so much for mentioning that. I think it’s something super important, especially for that personal growth element. Definitely, a sense of community is super important as well as, of course, experiential learning and everything you were talking about on that level. So yeah, the curriculum, it’s super ambitious in getting students to care about the outcome of their business degree on a personal, professional and global scale. It would be great if we could talk about how students are given a strong foundation to achieve personal growth while tackling global problems.

Darren Dahl: So I think this happens in a few different ways. So first off, you got to know the basics. I kind of teased at the beginning, right, accounting, finance and marketing. You have to understand the language of business. So that’s part of the education process, is getting your basics very well centred. Then once you have that as a base, right, then you have kind of the permission, the ability to chase down whatever might be your passion. So maybe you want to be an entrepreneur in clean tech, or maybe you’re excited about healthcare, or maybe, you know, you’ve just always wanted to start your own bubble tea shop, who knows, right? Once you’ve got that base right, then, boom, you are empowered, I would argue, to really kind of chase down whatever that dream that you might have in terms of pursuing some aspect of business. Now, in Harrington, that is kind of understanding, “Well, what’s your dream?” Because a lot of people that come to the school may not know, and that’s okay. Some people, when they’re born, right, they know right away. They’re like, one years old, and they’re like, “I want to be in finance,” and they get a tattoo, and that’s all they do, right? Finance. But what’s interesting is that some people aren’t so sure, right? They kind of know, maybe I want to do this, maybe I want to do that. So, you know, what we try to do is try to give permission to people that aren’t sure, to try lots of different things, and try to try to figure out, “Well, what is my identity when it comes to business, right?” Giving people the confidence – that’s the other big part of this – to take a shot to try different things and try to figure out “Where am I going to be the happiest? Where am I going to be able to contribute? Where am I going to be able to, you know, make a difference the way I want to make a difference, right?” So that’s a big goal, getting the basics right, understanding the direction you want, and then ensuring that what does fit for who you are. I was actually having a conversation just yesterday with a first-year student who thought they wanted to go into business and computer science, to be, you know, into programming in Python. And they said to me, on a walk we went on, they said, “After one month, I realised I don’t really like computer science.” And I said, “That’s okay, right? You can finish that part of the coursework, and then pivot and choose something else, something different, because that’s what we’re doing.” You know, when we come to university, we’re on a road of discovery to really figure out what is the right path, and it’s okay if you don’t know right at the beginning, it tends to be a journey.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah. I mean, I’ve hardly ever come across anyone who’s like, “I’m just so passionate about computer science. It’s my calling in life.” But it’s really nice to know –

Darren Dahl: There’s a few of them, come on.

Shekinah Kannan: I mean, it’s definitely interesting stuff, and it can lead to incredible outcomes, that’s for sure. But, yeah, it’s great that you’ve had a student, you know, really take into account what makes them happy and whether or not they are on a career path that’s gonna make them feel really fulfilled. So that’s definitely important as well, and it’s important for students to know that that is a possibility you can be happy on your career path. That’s great.

Darren Dahl: Honestly, it’s okay to pivot. Sometimes there’s family pressure or peer pressure, and you just think, “Oh, I need to do this.” But sometimes it’s okay to say, “No, no, no, I need space to figure it out.”

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, I can definitely see, based on all my research and stuff, a lot of the ways that UBC Sauder inspires students to do something meaningful in their careers. There’s a lot of great work that’s being done in the ethics, leadership, climate and sustainability spaces to tackle problems like climate change, inequality, economic development and many other things. While I’m sure there are several projects and initiatives with these goals, it would be great if you could share with us, Darren, your favourite innovative research projects that UBC Sauder students have taken part in so far.

Darren Dahl: Sure, so what I would say here is, you know, and this goes back to that experiential learning. For us, I think you want to give as many opportunities as we can to students, and some of them come from the students right bottom up, and some come top down, from the professors and the staff. One of the ones that I love, because I was directly involved in many years ago, and we still do it today, is a course called “New Venture Design.” In this course, three business students and three engineering students come together, and that’s always a bit awkward, like a weird high school dance, right? They are different, but they find each other, and then they decide what they want to produce, and what they want to create. So the goal of the whole class is to create a new product or service and patent it or prototype it, and then bring it to market and try to create a company. So it’s a purely experiential course, but what’s exciting about it is people come up with all kinds of ideas, and some of them actually go on and create a business out of what they did in the class. And that is fun because people get to be creative and innovative and just do whatever they want as long as they can find something that creates value. So that’s one example. A second example is, we have a programme called “Lift,” which sends our students to Kenya, to Nairobi in Africa, and they work there with people in Nairobi and help them in terms of, you know, education, in starting small, little businesses. You know, we have about 20 or so students that go every year, and it’s a real life-changing experience, because they’re exposed to a completely different culture, and they’re able to add value and to help people that perhaps may not have had the opportunity to go to university or to have this type of educational experience. So, you know, they come back from that experience and with a different view of the world. Their priorities perhaps have been shifted a bit because I’ve had a chance to work with a very different population than perhaps maybe where they grew up, or what they do on a day-to-day basis here in Canada. So two very different kinds of examples, both based on entrepreneurship, but one in terms of coming together with other students to create something really cool, and one really understanding and going deep into another culture where it can make a difference in people’s lives,

Shekinah Kannan: Right and are these opportunities available to both undergrad and postgrad students?

Darren Dahl: They are. So there’s a course in the undergrad called “New Venture Design”, and there’s a course in the MBA called “Tech Entrepreneurship,” and it’s the same model. And for “Sauder Lift,” it’s open to students in both programmes. So we try to create opportunity. Sometimes there are unique opportunities depending on the programme, and how long the programme is. But it’s a goal, certainly of mine, to make sure that no matter which degree you sign up for, you’re going to have experiential opportunities to really stretch yourself and learn in a different way.

Shekinah Kannan: And while we’re on that note, it would be great if we could talk a little bit about the Creative Destruction Lab – Vancouver, which was launched in 2016 and has since accepted over 400 ventures and counting. Yeah, if you could walk us through a little bit about how international students have benefited from CDL, that would be great.

Darren Dahl: Absolutely. So CDL is a pretty big programme, and you gave some highlights on the number of companies and billions of dollars of equity value has been created. The idea of CDL is to bring knowledge into the same space and what I mean by that is, often, you know, scientists at UBC or other universities come up with a really interesting technology or product or service or idea, and they want to bring it out of their lab, but they’re not really sure, right? They’re trained to be a scientist, right? So they’re working in nanotechnology, or they’re working in some type of biochemical context, right? So the CDL enables them, as a founder or as a scientist, to come into the room and get good advice, good knowledge, from other people that have done it before. Other people that have built a venture, as well as other scientists, as well as business support like lawyers and accountants and consultants. So it all comes together in sessions where, you know, people say, if you want to move this idea forward, Mr. Scientist, Mr. Founder, right, you have to tackle these goals. They get a goal set, and they work on that for three months, and then they come back, and then they get another goal set, and they come back, right? It helps move them forward, bringing their technology or their great idea to market. Now, why is this useful for students? Students, in many ways, get to ride along. We have a course, a CDL course, where they actually start at the beginning and help CDL pick which ventures are going to be part of the programme. So they do the due diligence. Hundreds of ventures apply, and so they help narrow it to a certain number of ventures. Then, as these sessions happen, they get to ride along right, sit watch with their big bowl of popcorn and see what happens in the room when more knowledge is applied to the venture. They get to see how it grows and they get to be, in some ways, a research assistant. Be a junior employee. Use that as a metaphor with these new ventures to help them get to the next stage. Sometimes what happens after going through the course and riding along with the ventures is sometimes they’re offered a job, or they’re given an opportunity to continue on and work with either this venture or perhaps start their own venture. So it does a couple of things as a course. One, it is very inspirational. It empowers students to see how they could perhaps do that. Second, is the deep knowledge on what it takes to be a successful venture in a tech or a biotech type space as example. And three, it can actually create employment opportunities directly for students that have an interest in working for a startup organisation that we see in these types of programmes. So that’s again, bit of a full-type answer, but it points again to the fact really cool education is letting you get your hands dirty and experience on the ground what companies you know new ventures are going through as they try to bring their products to market, right?

Shekinah Kannan: I love that you mentioned previously that a lot of these opportunities are available to students of all ages and academic backgrounds, which is great, I think, for listeners to know. As we were talking just now about different people at different stages of life coming into the business school, I was just thinking about international students who might be new to Vancouver and maybe a bit nervous about innovating and sharing their ideas with people. You know, anyone might feel a bit scared to tell people what their great idea is, afraid of judgment or afraid of, you know, people thinking that it’s not that great. So I just wanted to know if there are any avenues or programmes for international students or students in general, to help them kind of come out of their shells, or be more confident in presenting their ideas or working with people

Darren Dahl: Sure, there’s no question, and that’s quite an insightful question, that it can be hard and scary to come to a new place, right? For so many reasons, right? Just culturally, like maybe new food and a new way of, you know, banking or doing your laundry, like, who knows, right? Like so often for some people, it takes a few weeks to just get adjusted on the living and then you got to go to school, which is even more challenging for some people, because maybe you know where you went to school, it’s more of a strict type of schooling, and in our school, it’s a little more, you know, laid back, perhaps in your mind, or maybe the reverse, right? So there’s a lot of acculturation or a lot of getting over that initial anxiety and fear, and that’s pretty normal. So what I would tell you first off is to realise that, you know, you’re not alone as a student. It can be scary for everybody. So the first thing that we often do across programmes is try to create a nice on-ramp, right? So if you think about, you know, getting on a ferry or onto a highway system, there’s always an on-ramp to make it easier so you can speed up and you can merge into the traffic. There’s your metaphor. So in our undergrad programme, we have a programme called “Jumpstart,” which starts a bit before classes start, and it gives you a few days to kind of just understand what it’s going to be like to be in class, the requirements of university, what to expect in terms of grading. Maybe when you went to your school, you were always 95% and now at university, it changes a bit, right? So giving people again that confidence, reducing the anxiety you get to meet some professors that are very nice, right? Not scary, you know? It gets you in the zone so that you can actually be comfortable sharing your ideas. Now we do something parallel, of course, in our MBA and our other graduate programmes. We have a week of orientation where, again, you know, you get to meet people, good mixers, meet other students, and then you realise, “Whoa, I have a similar even though maybe we’re from a different country, I have a very similar outlook, very similar fears and anxieties as that person over there.” And you start to bond. I would tell you, one of the best ways to create bonding and community and reduce things that is food. So we’re always eating food in the first week, right? Because nothing brings people together more than food, good food, right? So that’s a big part of coming into university, it’s getting those interactions, meeting people, right? We do different activities in those weeks, whether it’s Jumpstart or orientations, to make sure that people you know are feeling like it’s their second home. Because once you feel and we all know what we’re like at home, right? We’re just who we are, and we don’t worry about impressing people. We’re always our worst selves and our best selves when we’re at home. At least that’s what my mom always said. So that level of comfort is what we hope you have, as a new student coming into the school that you can start to feel comfortable, to express your opinions, your ideas, your diversity, so that you know that you’ll be respected and people will see value in that, and that’s part of becoming a better person. The people that I admire the most are ones that are able to fit in in any context, any country, any culture, any part of a socioeconomic situation, right? These are cool people, and so that’s what we’re hoping our students will start to feel, is that you know, they can be comfortable in their own skin and then be confident to as you say, where you started, you know, express your ideas and be courageous enough to put your hand up. But it’s not easy at the beginning. I agree.

Shekinah Kannan: Of course, yeah. I’d love to talk a bit more about the student experience in a little bit. Actually, before we get to the fun stuff, I just had a question about the academic side of things. Based on everything that you’ve spoken about so far, Darren, I can definitely understand why UBC is ranked number one for business programmes in Canada’s best business programmes in university rankings by McLean’s education. Beyond this achievement, it also, I think, stands out for its specialised career tracks. There are a lot of great options on the website, and there’s a new climate track as well, which I think sounds obviously very aligned to everything we were talking about previously, about responsible business and responsible leadership. What do students tend to gain from this track, and how can they pair this with what the Centre for Climate and Business Solutions currently offers?

Darren Dahl: Great, that’s a good question. So why this track? Well, to be honest, this is driven by companies in the external community. So our Career Centre is always working with companies, big and small and trying to find opportunities for our graduates. So what we saw over the last two, three, four, five years is more companies, more organisations are saying, “Hey,” putting their hand up and saying, “Hey, we would love someone that can work in a climate capacity, maybe an ESG measurement, maybe in terms of, how do you scale a climate technology that reduces greenhouse gasses, we need a sustainability officer, right?” And so when the external community, companies, startups, nonprofits, start asking for this type of training, and this type of student graduate, you know, that means that we have to pivot and start to offer that type of programming. Then, on the flip side, it’s true that a lot of our students were saying, “Hey, I want to learn more about this. I want a class on this.” So, you know, when you’re feeling it from both sides like a sandwich, you want to make sure the stuff in the middle, that major, that option, is available to our students. So it’s really just being responsive to both the job market as well as student interest. That’s where there’s great opportunity. There’s a lot of business. The climate issue can’t be solved without business, right? It’s more than just making posters and going to marches that ain’t going to solve it. You have to solve the whole system, and that’s the job of business and government. But that’s an opportunity. So that’s the why. If that makes sense.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, definitely makes sense. Thank you so much for sharing that, and now we can get into the more fun stuff about –

Darren Dahl: I thought this was all fun stuff.

Shekinah Kannan: It always starts, I think, with the surroundings, right? People know, you know, great business school, amazing offerings and a lot of incredible opportunities. But as you were mentioning just now, it’s also about their surroundings. And, you know, the life that they’re going to have in a new location. So a big part of it is, you know, the international student experience, the location is a very important part of that. So UBC Sauder has an edge in this aspect, with Vancouver being known for its West Coast spirit. As someone who has been with the school since, we said, just now, over 22 years, it’s a really, really long time. I would love to know your first impression of this West Coast spirit.

Darren Dahl: I came from another part of Canada. I didn’t grow up in Vancouver, and I came here, and I was like, “Holy cow, this is amazing.” I did my degree, and then I had to go away, but I worked hard to come back as quick as I could. And so after four years away, I came back right. And so why? It’s a great question. The why is Vancouver itself. It’s, it’s a beautiful city, it’s a relatively safe city, it’s a clean city. It sits in the ocean with mountains behind it, and so it really is, you know, it’s a place to live where you can do all kinds of different things, whatever you’re passionate about. So many people that live here, they love the outdoors. They love to go hiking. They love to see, you know, animals, bears and hopefully not cougars, but they’re there, right? You can see all kinds of different wildlife, which is kind of cool, right? And if you love sports, there’s mountain biking and skiing and boating and kayaking, and who so much Lululemon, right? So many active people. So, you know, that’s there. And then it’s a multicultural city. There are so many different people from different walks of life. And so what does that mean? It means great food. You can find amazing food from Asia, from Europe, from Africa, from the US. There are burgers here. No, it’s, I’m just kidding, there’s just great food, and it’s fun. And then there’s an art scene. You know, whether you love live music, everything from orchestra to the speed mail, you name it, you can find it. So it’s a big enough city. It’s not as big as some of you know the other ones I mentioned, but it can cater to almost anything that you have an interest in, and that’s pretty cool. And so when you add it all up, Vancouver always does really well on the great cities to live in rankings. That’s why people like to live here and certainly that’s why I’ve stayed here. You add to that a university that’s just kind of fun and full of energy, and most people have an amazing time. So that’s an advantage. It’s just a great place to live.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, Vancouver’s always been on my must-visit list, and it sounds like an amazing place to balance out the rigours of a, you know, quite a well-rounded business degree and an MBA has actually also been on my bucket list for a while, so might have to kill –

Darren Dahl: We can send you an application right now.

Shekinah Kannan: I might have to kill two birds with one stone pretty soon. Thank you so much for painting such a vivid picture for us of what the student experience is like at UBC Sauder School of Business. It’s definitely setting a new standard, I think, for business education, and it sounds like it’s definitely producing the kind of graduates that our world needs right now. So very inspiring stuff. Thank you so so much for dedicating all this time for us.

Darren Dahl: Yeah, it’s my pleasure, and look forward to crossing paths again, hopefully in Vancouver or –

Shekinah Kannan: As an MBA student

Darren Dahl: Thank you.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah. So, to all our listeners considering a future in business, the UBC Sauder School of Business should definitely be on your radar. To learn more about their innovative programmes, visit Sauder. That’s S, A, U, D, E, R dot UBC dot CA. You can also connect with them on Facebook, Instagram, X, YouTube and LinkedIn. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the Extra Credit podcast. We’ve got more inspiring study-abroad stories and insights coming your way. In the meantime, feel free to share your thoughts or episode ideas with us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok under the username Study International. Thank you for tuning in everyone and until next time, take care and keep learning.